What if telling the truth, at least the truth as you see it, means dishonoring your father and mother? It has been sad to see the fine writer Frank Schaeffer—I called him once and told him how much I liked his 2005 book, Faith of Our Sons: A Father’s Wartime Diary—bashing in print his famous dad, Francis. But maybe Frank thought his iconoclastic message was important, and he was the only one in position to give it, because of his firsthand view.Friday, April 27, 2012
Plumbing the Depths of Evangelical Madness (As Sample of the "Word" Magazine Readership)
What if telling the truth, at least the truth as you see it, means dishonoring your father and mother? It has been sad to see the fine writer Frank Schaeffer—I called him once and told him how much I liked his 2005 book, Faith of Our Sons: A Father’s Wartime Diary—bashing in print his famous dad, Francis. But maybe Frank thought his iconoclastic message was important, and he was the only one in position to give it, because of his firsthand view.9 comments:
- Steve D said...
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I disagree with lumping C.S. Lewis in with fundamentalists.
But apart from that, do they really believe what they say? Yes. The biggest fallacy non-fundamentalists commit is speaking of fundamentalist "beliefs." They don't regard their doctrines as beliefs. As far as they are concerned, the Bible is a historical and scientific document on a par with any history or science book. To them, the Deluge is a historical event as fully documented as the Magna Carta. They consider the Bible fully authenticated and therefore anything that contradicts it is ipso facto, wrong. In fact, I can't think of a single major religion that considers its doctrines "beliefs." To a Muslim, it is not a matter of opinion that Mohammed received the Koran from God; to a Hindu, it is not a matter of opinion whether or not we are reincarnated.
In fact, when people talk about fundamentalists "imposing their beliefs" on people, fundamentalists react as if they simply don't know what they're talking about. To fundamentalists, the harm caused by sexual misbehavior is every bit as objectively real and documented as the harm caused by tobacco or handguns, and society is just as justified in regulating sexual behavior as it is regulating tobacco or guns.
See my article Religion as Belief versus Religion as Fact, Journal of Geoscience Education, v. 50 n. 2 p. 137-144 Mar 2002 -
April 27, 2012 at 3:52 PM
- Mishiginebig said...
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Frank, your message is reaching those of us who have chosen not embrace organized religion, but recognize it's powerful political reach.
Among my circle of friends, no one is a member of a church. Yet I regularly direct them to your blog as a means of trying to understand fundamentalist views.
To many of us, the message of right-wing evangelism has gone from Reaganite platitudes to a bizarre language that is incomprehensible.
Many of the inflammatory comments aimed at you are so coded, that I can't decipher the referent point in any of them. But the source of their anger is clear - you are the person from the "inside" willing to reveal what's behind the curtain.
The article from "The Word" is hacky pseudo-journalism at best, a personal attack at worst. When I come across anything that refers to "The Word", I associate it with The Gospel of John. Despite the fact I am not a Christian, I consider John's "Word" a transcendent message that risies above conflict to share in an eternal and universal vision of personal revelation.
There could be nothing further from that message than the article about you by Marvin Olasky. But what can you expect from someone who claims to be promoting the ideas of Christ, and pens a book entitled "The Tragedy of American Compassion" that criticizes the welfare state as somehow being an antagonism to human development.
It's amazing how self-made Olasky is, never having had to learn in publicly funded schools, drive on publicly funded streets or drink publicly funded water.
And just as a side note; Chuck Colson was a convicted felon who betrayed the constitution of the United States and worked very hard his whole life to suppress democracy. I'm glad he found Christ. Too bad he completely missed the point of Christ's message. -
April 27, 2012 at 8:32 PM
- Frank Schaeffer said...
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Steve and Mishiginebog, thanks so much for the comments. You both have helped me understand more of what is going on here. The "inside" aspect is daunting and I really wonder if some forms of religion is really a mental illness of some kind.
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April 28, 2012 at 4:51 AM
- Ex-Crusader said...
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As a former evangelical, I have to agree that a large part of the heated response you receive is defensive. I know that I had huge doubt issues bubbling under the surface for years. When I started really struggling with my faith and started to voice my doubts to my evangelical friends, you could see them immediately shut down to avoid having to think about the very pertinent questions I was asking. Denial is the evangelical's best friend (at least the ones who try to use their brains at all).
What I would have labeled as "wishy-washy" or "half-assed" christians (when I was an evangelical) won't understand what it's like to be in that extreme mindset. You have to completely shut off certain parts of your brain and hide in the insular little world of fundamentalist "truth." -
April 28, 2012 at 6:53 AM
- Frank Schaeffer said...
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Hi Ex-C I think when you say "You have to completely shut off certain parts of your brain and hide in the insular little world of fundamentalist 'truth'" that you hit it dead on. Best, F
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April 28, 2012 at 10:28 AM
- Steve D said...
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Frank, glad you liked my first post. I'm a geologist and I've been monitoring the fundamentalist scene for decades. Plus my wife spent some time in the Assemblies of God so I got to see that world from the inside. A few more observations, if you can stand them:
1. Go into a Christian book store and see the sheer volume of literature. Every imaginable critique of fundamentalism has been counter-critiqued. It is simply impossible to come up with a criticism they haven't already heard and have an answer to.
2. Anyone who wants to confront fundamentalists has to make it a major research project, as in read at least a thousand pages of their literature. People who think they can waltz in and lay down a devastating, unanswerable argument are fooling themselves and only look uninformed, which they are.
3. There are about 31,000 verses in the Bible (sources vary on the count). If you take them one at a time, you have a huge task to prove them all true, and how can you prove Joshua really did make the Sun stand still?. On the other hand, if you can sell the premise "the entire Bible is true," then it's easy. That's what it's all about. And fundamentalists point to the things that are known to be true (Pontius Pilate was a real person) to argue that the whole Bible must be true. It's like arguing that Aristotle was real, therefore Achilles had to have been real.
4. Don't they realize the Bible was written for a different culture? And that there are other interpretations of the Bible? Yes. They regard those issues as irrelevant. After all, there's only one correct value for the speed of light and all other values are wrong, so why can't there be only one correct interpretation of the Bible? After all, the IRS knows there are alternative interpretations of the tax code, and they just dismiss them as bogus. -
April 28, 2012 at 5:05 PM
- Rocky2 said...
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[Would love Frank's reaction to this recently found web item.]
GOD TO SAME-SEXERS: "HURRY UP!"
(written by a friend in 2003)
Even the God of the entire Bible is behind the gay rights movement----and I'll prove it.
(Although this paper focuses on lost persons in the "Northeastern Bermuda Triangle" outlined roughly by New York City, Montreal, and Boston, I'm sharing it with everyone everywhere.)
You who identify with GBLT (no, not Gay Bacon Lettuce & Tomato!) already know about your own history. So for the unlearned I'll include some info on it, much of which is on the internet.
Gay activist John McKellar has stated: "The major media are all nonstop advertisements for the gay lifestyle, so how far are they prepared to go in denying free speech to Christians, Muslims, and Jews?....No major world religion has ever accepted homosexual behavior. And if [gay] activists had any sense of history, they'd realize their own lifestyle is a symptom of an overurbanized, relativized culture heading into decadence."
Thomas Jefferson revealed that in Virginia, "dismemberment" of the offensive sex organ was the penalty for sodomy, and he himself authored a bill penalyzing sodomy by castration. The same internet article, "Homosexuals in the Military" by David Barton, also stated that sodomy , homosexuality etc. were regarded as felonies in early America and were even punishable by death in New York, Connecticut, South Carolina, and Vermont!
You GBLTs have traveled far. You are now helping to fulfill two big signs that Jesus said (in Luke 17) will characterize life on earth just before His return to it: "days of Noah" (physical violence) and "days of Lot" (your GBLT ancestors).
Even the New York Times has expressed amazement over the suddenness and pushiness of today's campaign for legalizing same-sex marriage, and Prof. David M. Halperin wrote that "lesbian and gay studies scholars" have led the way in fighting against policies that "criminalize gay sex or limit access to abortions."
I said early on that the Bible's God is behind you GBLTs. Yes, He's behind you and even pushing you down the dead-end road you have insisted on taking. Several scary Bible passages show that God will actually "program" those whose motto seems to be "HELL-BOUND AND HAPPY!": "the Lord God...gave them up to desolation" (II Chron. 30:7); God "gave them up to uncleanness," "gave them up to vile affections," "gave them over to a reprobate mind" (Rom. 1:24,26,28); "God shall send them strong delusion" (II Thess. 2:11); and "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still" (Rev. 22:11).
Now that you GBLTs have invented strange architecture (closets opening on to main streets instead of bedrooms!), have traded limp wrists for clenched fists, and are fighting for shame-sex marriage, I wonder if you will be happy when you're turned New York into New Yuck, Boston into Bah!-ston, and other places into Messychoose-its, Nude Hampshire, Vermin, and Cana-duh (where at least the maple leaves will be blushing!). And of course I should include Hell-A and San Fransissyco which, appropriately, are in Quake-ifornia!
So what are you waiting for? Since you're bent on fulfilling the predicted end-time Noah/Lot days (your way of helping to make the Bible even more believable!), and since seemingly you'd rather discover the "wrathful Judge" side of Christ instead of His "merciful and loving and forgiving" side, can't you speed up your role and get it over with? You're holding up the true and everlasting peace that God wants to give to the whole world!
(You're free to reproduce and distribute this non-copyrighted paper everywhere including the internet. You're also free to use a different title with it, if you wish.) -
April 29, 2012 at 1:06 PM
- Steve D said...
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If whoever wrote Rocky2's piece really thinks like that, what's keeping HIM? The surest way to speed the end times and the appearance of the Antichrist would be to vote for the most anti-Christian candidates you can find. Do everything you can to pack the Supreme Court with pro-abortion atheists. Campaign for the legalization of human sacrifice, child porn, and bombing churches. The worse it gets, the better it gets.
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May 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM
- sdub said...
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This whole page is just amazing.Not because any of it is new, just because everyone's responses are so insightful and intelligent. So, so glad you all are out there. On one of the blogs in response to one the Colson obits that Frank made available to us last week, one blogger said that he just didn't understand who bloggers like us were talking about when it came to these fundementalists. Lucky him.
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May 3, 2012 at 7:51 AM
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Interestingly, after John MacArthur wrote, “The Gospel According to Jesus” (which I consider to be an important book), some attacked him for advocating views that sounded a lot like Catholicism.
FBC Euless was a special place. It was truly a light piercing the darkness.
In view of the question posed during the Reformation, what about the Roman Catholic Church today? Is it a true church? Here it seems that we cannot simply make a decision regarding the Roman Catholic Church as a whole, because it is far too diverse. To ask whether the Roman Catholic Church is a true church or a false church today is somewhat similar to asking whether Protestant churches are true or false today—there is great variety among them. Some Roman Catholic parishes certainly lack both marks: there is no pure preaching of the Word and the gospel message of salvation by faith in Christ alone is not known or received by people in the parish……
- Priests between us and God
- Praying for the dead.
- Praying to Saints
- Veneration of Mary
- Infallibility of a man
with such sad eruptions by teaching us that God RESISTS the proud but GIVES GRACE to the humble.
Proverbs chapter 15 also nudges us along the road of blessings and ends climactically in vs.33:
“The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom and before honor is humility!” Please Frank, enjoy
fellow-members of the Family, including those whose differences have marked them all the
way till now they have reached home. Won’t you look forward to meeting them “on the other side?”
Grace to you and…. peace!
I’m saddened that Franky is revelling in “the acclaim of men”. He is the flip side of Madlyn O’Hair’s son who became a Christian and a pastor. Franky for many years still claimed to be anti-abortion but I’m sure he’s muted that or abandoned his proLife view just ad did Je$$e Jackson and Albert Gore
his book The Way to Christ indicate a profound humility and understanding that the Catholic Church fully understands theologically that it doesn’t in itself mediate between man and God.